KCI The Anti_Meth Site

Harsher punishment for meth cooks?

Savannah OfLight	Harsher punishment for meth cooks? A while back there were these people sitting out side our local Wal-Mart asking people to sign a petition to get longer sentences for meth cooks. I would like to know what you all think about this. Honest opinions, but please let other people have thier opinions. I think this would be a great discussion and would really like to see how our opinions differe and why. I meant to post this a while back, but I am soooo scatter brained!
Replies...
Loraura	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? I think I would rather see certain sentences enforced on first offenses of manufacturing rather than longer sentences for those who get sentenced. What I mean by certain sentences is this: guaranteed, no plea bargaining, no escaping the consequence. Cook meth -- get caught -- go to jail. A certainty about the punishment might deter some who otherwise weigh the odds and take the risk. There are some people who won't cross a line into certain, inescapable, long-term jail time if caught, even in the grips of addiction. There are of course others who will tempt fate, and push it until they get caught, regardless of the consequences. Currently our way of handling first offenses ENCOURAGES people to take the risk because the odds are that they won't do much jail time the first time. They may not even do ANY jail time, on first offense. So knowing that this option is a possibility, the risk is reduced and the behavior encouraged. How many people are arrested for manufacturing the first time they attempt to participate in this crime? I would guess very very few. So by the time someone is arrested for manufacturing they have already likely gotten away with it several or even countless times. By the time they get caught, it's more than one bad judgment call, it's a decision to continue the behavior UNTIL they are forced to stop. Forcing someone to stop earlier rather than later might save some lives, including their own. I personally think that the entire plea-bargaining system has undermined the judicial system's ability to be effective. Sociology shows that swift, certain, severe punishments work. Drawn out, delayed, plea-bargained, reduced sentences don't.
phoenix	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? "Drawn out, delayed, plea-bargained, reduced sentences don't." worked for me Lora, Hundreds of hours of community service, thousands of $ in fines, and multi-year probation...one slip and you do your sentance in the big house, and let's not forget the nice little title of "Convicted Felon" and everything that comes with it, for the rest of your life... Plea bargains are not the walk in the park that you think they are.
FSOAB	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? How did it work for you phoenix?
phoenix	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? "How did it work for you phoenix?" I stopped being an addict and a criminal.
1Headlight	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? This is a topic that hits home for me......... My son served 30 days shock time and is currently on 5 years probation (5 years jail if he violates) for a state charge of manufacturing. It was his first "charge" (although not his first "cook"). He was "re-rocking" - what I consider more an "addiction driven crime" than a crime against "others". That charge was his wake up call and he has been clean & sober since the day after he was arrested (882 days ago!). I feel his case was fair and just......... My brother sits in Federal prison and will continue to until 2014. He received 112 months for 3 counts of possessing meth and the materials required for manufacturing. He was a "dealer/addict/cook". This was his first charge also. His sentence upsets me in that (locally) I have seen a variety of what I consider to be more of a "crime against others" such as a vehicular manslaughter case that carried a charge of only 5 years. Should my brother be punished? YES! ...... but nearly 10 years????? I feel that is excessive. I do feel that every case is different and should be examined as such. I don't want to see "cookie cutter" justice. In example.... should someone who stole food to keep their children fed be charged/sentenced the same as someone who steals a car for a joy ride?
Hurting for YOU	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Savannah.........great topic! I can remember once upon a time when I was so enraged by the thought that "meth cooks" could get away so easily cooking meth and therefore making it easy to destroy one more person. I was so passionate in my feelings that I said that if I had the power to blow up every meth lab in the world..........I would do so..........even if everyone I loved, including my children that I could not love more, I would do so if my children were the ones cooking............in order to save all the thousands that are affected by meth use. I was so strong in my passionate views.......that it made me sick thinking of taking my own childrens lives to protect everyone else.........SICK I was SICK! I no longer think along those lines. D is a meth cook. I hate it. She hates it. The kids hate it. I have heard D say that she wished there was a rehab for "meth cooks that had the addiction problem" because she feels like it is another addiction and one that is not "singled" out. I don't know if she is right or not. But I know that she is a very lovign caring sole...........she would never intentionally harm anyone...........therefore I don't think along thoses lines any longer. One thing I know is "I don't know" what the answer is. Meth addicts.............meth cooks............are people too regardless of my shallow thinking before thinking they were monsters. I think that different things work for different folks: People I know personally: One guy - is serving his four prision sentence for cooking meth...........was only out the last time for less than 3 month before he went back Another man - was burn badly by a meth explosion while he was cooking.....spent time in the burn unit.......said when he got out he would never do it again............he is now less than a year later back at it full force. Then there are people like Phx..........who "got it" and made their life what it should be by accepting responibility for their actions and moving forward. Phx............I am sorry that you are titled "felon" for the rest of your life.................I can't imagine what that is like. My brother is also titled "felon" and has been since the 80's, but he is a very wonderful outstanding person. One that I would trust with my life............he inspite of his title has gone on with his life and focuses on the person he wants to be and not the title..................Phx you are an example of how people can change and improve your life despite what part meth had played in your life............you are an inspiration to many!
JrsHubby1	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Thats a good one honey! As we all know , yes I was a cook. I made it 1, for me , that way I knew exactly what went it to it and how it was made! I never made it in a house, car , hotel or wherever. I made in the "sticks" by myself or 1 or 2 others(both adults), I never left my "trash" behind either. I'm not saying that is any better ! Its not really ! Its still making dope, but there are other things to consider. If someone is cooking it with their children in a house or in some cases that I know with their child. Personally I find that to be irresponsable, and just plain rude , rude , rude!!! With those people then I say definately yes! With people like me, that do it for themselves and the "friends" they have. Well I think the gov. should spend more on awareness , and rehabilitation! It may not work for everyone , but for some it may and it does! Now for the big drug cartels,or however you spell it, that are in it just for the money. They dont care about me , you , or anyone else , they just feed off of our "addiction"! As long as they are going to be making it there are goin to be "addicts", and as long as theres goin to be "addicts", they definately are not going to stop making it! They are kinda like the big bio-med companies that make lortab,somas,oxycotin,zanaxs,and whatevers, and have doctors in your local clinic, out there pushin their "legal dope"! Everyone knows it goes on , and yet has anyone done anything to stop that or slow it down? With both "legal" and "illegal" drugs. As long as there are people doing them and TONS of money to be made at it, its going to happen! Does it make the local doctor (drug dealer) any different then me? No not really, hes just got a license to do just as much damage! So for your question. As far as imposing harsher sentences? I say it depends on the circumstances involved in that particular case!
JrsHubby1	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Lo-1st, Otherwise weigh the odds and take the risk? Sry but when I was doin it the only thing I was weighing was the dope! 2nd, No one gets caught the first time! Yes I would say that the legal, or lack of, system that we have in this country does provide the insentive to break the law! Oh well , wont get in trouble the first time! Phoenix- Good job for you bro.! Read what I say to katie, please. 1 headlight - 1st , I gotta headlight issue myself, cant ever have enough , I love em! lol Yes the legal system is pretty messed up on that! When I started seeing a lawyer for my case(not drug related) . The first question outta his mouth was" how much money you got"! Cost me prolly 20-25 thousand and it keep me from going to prison for 12 - 18yrs. but I still got convicted of a felony. Katie-1st , You know I love readin you and you just well make me smile and let me know that there still is hope for this world! Bless You!!!! As D said and I will totally agree! I was a meth user. My "addiction" was definately in cooking it! Smoking meth was just something I did, my "Rush" and high came from making it! Im not saying that anything I did was any better or made me any better than anyone else, but thats who I was! Where I been and what I did has made me what I am today? Just like your brother , Why focus on the past and yesterday, It just makes more sense to focus on today and tommorrow!
Loraura	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Phoenix, my nephew sits in prison TODAY, right now, because he plea-bargained a charge and then DID NOT follow through with his end of the bargain. For some, like yourself, it works. For some others, it doesn't seem to. For my nephew, holding certain jail time over his head wasn't enough for him to walk the walk. I can only hope that experiencing certain jail time will be. If not, the lesson will repeat for him over and over until he gets it or dies. I hope he gets it sooner than later and I hope he gets it before he has children.
starfish lover123	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? If we cut off the supply of ephedrine and sudoephdrine so that some folks won't have to suffer a cold, , chances are, the production of meth would be halted altogether. But that wasn't the question, was it? Think smarter, not harder. . .
Loraura	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? We can't cut off the supply of those things to other countries, it would just mean the drugs are made elsewhere. Most of the meth in the US comes up from Mexico from what I have read. Frankly if a meth lab IS GOING TO exist somewhere, I'd rather it be as far away from me as possible.
starfish lover123	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? We can cut off the supply - it just isn't done. Why do you think that would be impossible? It would take a lot of ambassadorship, but it is possible. In addition, if we get better at and more savvy about the smuggling process, viola - we'd have it licked. No ephedra or suedoephra = no meth - period.
Oakland athletic	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? If people want meth they are going to get it.........The war on drugs has failed for many many years......We can't even keep our boarders closed from illigals coming here...How are we goign to stop meth......It starts with us....We make a choice to use...people have been getting high for centuries........You have to cut off the demand......Then the supply goes bye bye.........IMO
logolove	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Oaklandathletic - correct 100%... As long as there is a need someone will supply to make a buck. It is simple economics. You cannot legislate morality which has been proven time and time again - in fact when we had prohibition booze was still flowing and more dangerous as it was made in stills in the woods - part of the reason car engines and boat engines advanced as they did was so smugglers could outrun the law. Starfishy - even Jesus said it - the poor will always be with us - you cannot by legal fiat erase poverty - for example by taxing those that work to support those that choose not too - and just so everyone knows - I do believe there is a difference between those that cannot support themselves and those that choose not to - and only one of those groups is deserving of economic support by the rest of us - and unfortunately those that take advantage make it harder to support those that truly need and make those that do the supporting resentful - and it is hard sometimes to discern where true need lies and the rest is manipulation and laziness. Anyway - you will not erase poverty, you will not erase drug addition by mandate. It is a human problem and has been with us always and I do not see any quick resolution ahead since it is an individual problem and relies on the individual to take part in the solution.
JrsHubby1	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Star- Sorry but even without ephedrine or psuedoephedrine there will still be meth! You can walk into 3 places and get everything you need to make a "batch" of ice! You can get it all right off the shelf to this day! The U. S . gov. has negotiated with , I believe Bio-chem, one of the largest suppliers of psuedoephedrine in the world . They monitor and try( key word) to limit the amount of pseudo into mexico. Mexico still imports like 70 tons of pseudo a year ! Its "BIG" money ,and its hard to fight it ,especially in a foreign country. Ill try to find the program again and post it. Is it really the supply of ingrediants that is the problem? I think not! I lean more towards the demand of the finished product "meth" ! I think that as long as there is a "demand" for it , that there will always be somebody somewhere willing to do whatever and however they have too , to supply it!
Savannah OfLight	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Ok so here is my take....I did not sign the petition because I dissagree. Number one...puttin em away really doesn't help...i'm for prevention rather than punishment. Don't get me wrong...ya break the law you should do time...but whats next...life in prision for manufaturing??? It just gets me that rapists, child molesters, and murderers get lesser sentences. Our jails/prisions are over crowded with addicts....maybe in the future there wont be room for the "bad" criminals.
Oakland athletic	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? So true Savannah..............The prisons are busting at the seams......And guess what some prisions you can get drugs easier than on the streets.
starfish lover123	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? I have heard that meth can be made without ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, but if we look at what Mexico imports - wow - that's a start. If one has no flour, then a cake one cannot bake, right? Meth is man-made and not from nature, so there are only so many sources of those chemicals. However, I suppose some other drug, even more sinister would pop up to take it's place if meth were eliminated overnight. All-in-all, one cannot be forced to stop using drugs - period. As for punishing people for making meth, I am undecided. I don't know how I feel about that one. I think, at this point, it is an unsolvable problem, and it has taken over our country, (and many others.) I don't see an end to it, (except biblically, and I WON'T go there.) In education and prevention, perhaps future generations, (if there will be any,) can overcome it just by never using. JMHO
1tamtom	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? for me i depends , for mom and pop cut some slack,as for the cartels and the superlabs the southerners are doing i think these folks should be done when caught maybe even charged with weapons of mass distruction,the small timers may just be feeding a habit. then again i see the cartels as what the government had in mind when they cracked down on on the local ephedrine knowing full well the slack would be picked up from the south. ephedrine come from a plant, and there are alot of ways to make things without it. i don't remember anyone using it until the 80s.
LdyOf Wzdm	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? ...I feel like this is a double edge sword to me. On one hand, my daughter is a convicted cook (2003 arrest). She had just turned 20 years old and served over one year in prison (this does not include almost a year of county jail time, before the conviction), and has been on probation for the past three years, and will continue to be until 2011. That is if she doesn't screw up before, which from our conversation today she is REAL close to doing that. I don't want my daughter in jail/prison. I didn't want her there when she was. Knowing and loving her makes me lean toward a lighter sentencing for (as described above) the "Mom & Pop" cooks... ...that is unless, Unless they are living across the street from me, and selling their shyt to my granddaughter "Bug". Then I want them to fry in hell! So I have very roller coaster feelings about this topic, and appreciate you bring it up. This way I'm able to read and learn about what is outside my own heart. Thank you!
starfish lover123	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? 1tamtom, I am now more curious than ever -what plant produces ephedra? LOL, (sounds like I want to make it or something - NOT - just curious- learn something new everyday.) However, if one had to grow it, it might make it a little harder to "score" than just getting it from the guy on the corner.
1tamtom	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? lol. yet it comes from a plant. i bet its a pain in the butt to extract it. like cocaine and heroin ,folks here are starting to make their own as well.
phoenix	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? The "Ephedra" plant is where ephedra comes from. There are different varieties that grow all over the world. You can even find it in the American South West... google "Mormon Tea". Getting the Ephedra out is a bit of a trick, that's why when it was legal to sell in the US as a health food supplement, you just ate the plant material itself, usually in capsule form. Ephedra is not what you use to make meth anyway....you want "Ephedrine"
logolove	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? People - on this site - I think it was donnaeve - mention cooking their own to have control over what the hell went in it. Again - something else will be substituted - just like with the Dust-Off thread - on huffing canned chemicals. Question to Starfishy and anyone else wanting to simply shut down production of ephedrine- are the rest of us that do not use meth or misuse other things... are we supposed to give up amenities and items that improve our lives because someone else might misuse them? (It's called socialism-social control-it doesn't work).
1tamtom	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? i think shutting down the ephedrine was the dumbest thing yet,folks get sick and have to go through major problems just because others thought it was a good idea,i have not heard anywhere about this little thing stopping the meth trade just gave others extra pain in the rear.
JrsHubby1	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? 1- Yeah its not fair that everybody has to suffer just because a few take a good thing and do bad with it! I do think the guidelines and restrictions that most states have or will be placing on the purchases of ephedrine or pseudoephedrine products are a great idea! I live in Ks. 4-5 yrs ago you could walk into any store and buy 2 boxes of pseudos. everyday! Big city , few hrs, 30 - 40 stores, no matter how much money I took ,always ran out??? Even though the employees at the stores knew you, you could walk in the same store every other day and do the same thing!! Now with the restrictions , you can show a I D a get 1 box every 10 days, and seeing how pretty much the only stores in ks. you can get them now is WAL-MART and WAL-GREENS !!! (shows how much wal-mart cares bout their communities , huh?) So lets do some math on just what I know a person can do. George goes to 25 stores and buys 2 boxes at each. = 50 boxes per day only goes 5 days a week =250 boxes per week not counting the months with5 wks ,, will go 4 weeks =1000boxes per month With the restrictions now 1 person can buy 6 boxes per month! At, well call it 2.0 grams a box, George' meth production alone drops from 2000 grams to 12 grams a month! WOW!! That alone is a whopping 1988 grams a month drop in production!! So it may not be fair , but it in my opinion is that well yeah it has to have at least cut down on the amount of meth labs and production in neighborhoods? I believe that there are also stats. that show a decrease in the number of meth lab bust in states with restrictions in place. Seeing how pseudo. is totally a synthetic man made chemical , I'm quite certain that there is something else that can stop the sniffly, sneezy , stuffy head so you can rest!! If there is not a noticeable difference. It could be that the "cooks" are finding different ways to make it?
butter flyxo	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? I'm glad that you brought this up also. Last July my sister was caught cooking meth on her back porch. She was indicted on a count of manufacturing a controlled substance (22 grams of meth) & a count of promotion of meth manufacture. This of course is in her criminal case. She's been out on bond ever since around the first of August. They have put it off until they can't anymore & the hearing is set for June 5th. I was told that she's going to plead guilty to the charges & accept the plea bargain. Her charges fell under a class that's a minimum of 8-12yrs, but the plea bargain will be around 3-4 yrs, which will be serving 30% of that. She also has a juvenile case because my 2yr old nephew was in the home. The DCS has a petition against her & if charged with it, it'll take her rights away from my nephew & never allow her to have children again. If she does get pregnant, DCS will be at the hospital to claim the baby & she won't be allowed to see it or touch it. I have my nephew as many of you know. These hearings have been cancelled & cancelled. This is the hardest thing that I've ever had to do in my life...be against someone that I love so much.
starfish lover123	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Thanks Phoenix for clearing that up - I actually meant ephedrine, but I am a blonde, . So now that's cleared up, what plant does ephedrine come from? JrsHubby1, I completely co-sign your post!!! Excellent points. Logolove, "Question to Starfishy and anyone else wanting to simply shut down production of ephedrine- are the rest of us that do not use meth or misuse other things... are we supposed to give up amentities and items that improve our lives because someone else might misuse them? (It's called socialism-social control-it doesn't work)." You betcha I would suffer a cold to put a bite into the meth problem! In fact, I would probably cut my left arm off if it would stop the problem altogether! How much is a cold medicine really an "amenity?" It's not like it's toilet paper or something - there are a plethora of other, even "holisitic" types of relief for colds that don't contain ingredients to make meth. Of course it is social control - just like MJ, cocaine, and heroin are illegal. Without social control, there would be complete anarchy and pandamonium. Chemistry is not my fortee, but I was reading up on the Chantix I am taking to stop the smokage. Nicotine releases a short-term dopamine reward, (nothing close to meth,) and what Chantix does, once it builds up in the system, binds to and blocks the nicotine receptors in the brain, thus reducing one's urge to smoke. And if one smokes while on the medication, there is no dopamine reward and it just tastes like poo in your mouth. Of course, one still has to WANT to stop smoking for it to work. Perhaps there is way to block the dopamine release as a result of meth use - making it impossible to receive the "reward" for using??? Just a thought. .
logolove	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Starfishy- They already found the drugs that block the pleasure of cocaine and meth. Unfortunately the side effects of these drugs is an even deeper depression than is suffered by the dopamine loss engendered by using them. It apparently increase the risk of suicide to an enormous degree. Makes sense actually that if you block the effect of whatever dopamine is left in a person trying to quit meth that eventually when it should be naturally gaining in their brains and returning back into their system and allowing them some pleasure in life - well block that and anhedonia is the result. Also - the ideal - at least in this country as it was founded is freedom of choice - ie: a minimum of social control. I do not need the federal government nor do I need the state government determining whether or not I should be eating McDonalds French Fries every day or not - I should be intelligent enough to know the result of that behaviour and as hard as it can be, to exert some discipline over myself. I truly believe that if people are allowed to reap the consequences of their behaviour they will change or they will end up as we all by now know - institutions, jails or death. While this is a sad reality of life - again - it is preferable to have my freedom to rise up or fall down by choices rather than by those made for me by people quite often with less ability and knowledge to make those decisions for me than I have myself. It forces me to be self responsible rather than blaming others for my circumstances.
phoenix	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? ephedra is the alkaloyd, epedrine is the salt...same plant star
starfish lover123	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Logo, Perhaps that is why all the warnings are popping up about Chantix use, stating it causes depression and suicidal ideation in some people who use it. . . But Chantix, according to the package insert and all the info I have read, does not block "normal" dopamine release, just that of the nicotine. Of course the blockage of ALL dopamine production would cause anyone to want to committ suicide. You can bet that if I start wanting to kill myself, I'd better just "cold turkey" it. In terms of the cost of meth to society, I think a major debate here would be utterly fruitless, (as there is no real "answer," just some good discussion,) but social controls, in and of themselves, are not designed for those of us who are "responsible" - they are there for those who are not. The flaw in thinking that the meth problem will solve itself through "natural" consequences of jails, institutions or death is this: jails and institutions are overcrowded as it is, and being in the field, I have been witness to many people suffering chronic and persistent mental illness being released from these institutions to suffer on the streets, which costs society a great deal more $ in hospitalizations and shelter costs, etc. than keeping these folks institutionalized, or better yet, providing Community Based Case Mananagment. Also, it is the rest of us "responsible" people who are paying for the hots and cots in those jails and prisons. As long as you feel free to keep social control to an absolute minimum, might as well feel free to pay the cost of that "freedom" as well. And what about the children left behind who are either in foster care or institutions waiting for an adoption, (that will likely never take place?) Who do you think is paying for that? And what about the personal cost to the innocent victims, like children living in meth labs or drug houses? Who is protecting their "rights?" No one is protecting the rights of those innocent children, as in the case with a good friend of mine who's daughter is an ice addict. Her grandkids are being abused in every way conceivable, and my friend has had major conversations with the police, CPS (DFS) case managers and supervisors, the kid's school counselors and everyone else she could contact to get the kids out of that environment. The police say they couldn't possibly arrest everyone who doing drugs, CPS says they have too many kids already that they can't place, and all the schools can do is just keep reporting it. She thought that she would finally get the kids when her 10-yr-old granddaughter slashed her wrists trying to kill herself, but CPS just said that she was mimicking a scene out of some movie. Again, I am talking about doing without a cold medicine for the sake of reducing the devastation of meth production, not raping people of their right to stuff cheeseburgers down their throats anytime they wish. McDonalds and meth are worlds apart, as far as I am concerned - it's a debate of apples and oranges. If the cost of a cold medicine is the cost of human life - hell yeah, I'll do without it!
Nobody nose	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? I would love to see something like this. Instead of doing prison time, get them rehab, counseling, and HARD work. ie: tearing down the contaminated buildings and rebuilding them. The clandestine houses are always condemned & the state (at least where I live) is left with the cost.
logolove	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? NobodyNose- co-signed... Starfishy - don't think because I do not agree with the method with which you would attempt to achieve a meth free world that I do not also desire the same - I just do not think the approach is correct. And those children have been in those foster homes and will be there as long as people who are not responsible give birth - but the solution to that is intolerable to some (in order to get a welfare check or if you are on probation etc etc etc - you ought to have to take birth control and have it given via injection or something to insure it is being done... ) There is no way you will convince me that by removing cold medicine from the shelves you will stop the production of meth or some other equally harmful substance. What I agree with JR about is that it has tempered the amount of meth labs next door and moved production across national borders for the most part - and while I do not wish anyone ill - if it is going to exist better to not have it next door. The thing is that the more social controls you apply the lower rate of compliance you will have and the less good will. (Black markets will thrive - even more blood money will be made...) I think along the lines of the post above - have consequences fit the crime - if people went to jail/prison and had to work to pay for their food and shelter and to repay the cost of arresting them, putting them through trial and so forth - had to actually work to support themselves AND while incarcerated and having to work also simultaneously going through a rehabilitation program - then maybe there would be a lower rate of relapse. I read - far too many years ago - about a program in Italy that helped heroin addicts. It was amazing and had an amazingly low relapse rate - essentially you signed up and spent 3-4 years at a place where you had to follow pretty strict rules but you were given health care, nutrition, an education (you probably already know about the illiteracy rates in our prisons) and taught a trade - at this place it was a self sustaining farm environment - they grew food and raised animals - and the did things like make sweaters from the wool they sheared from the sheep - they did everything start to finish so they had a tangible thing to show for their work and the sweaters and pottery that was made and other crafts were sold in high end boutiques - the money went to help sustain the farm - as well as the work they did growing and raising their own food. A truly amazing thing would happen - people at 3 and 4 years left and started careers as artists and craftsmen and grew into society. I always imagined if I had the money to start a program like that here - this was even before I was sober - I thought how wonderful it would be to create such a thing. Very much like I think Delancey Street in SF. Intensive, committed programs work - but again - if someone absolutely does not want to quit abusing drugs or what have you then we cannot prevent it and to spend money on that - well you may as well pay for a full time bodyguard or nanny for each and every person who might fall into that category - and still it would not work. Humans learn and change sometimes at a painfully slow rate - look how hard it is to get and stay reasonably fit and healthy - obesity is epidemic - yet even with all the money and hopeful cures - well. How much harder to cure us as a species of drug abuse. Especially one like meth that literally create a dependency in the mind - the clean people here are amazing to me. Truly amazing.
Oakland athletic	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Star.... that sounds all great and rah rah...But the fact is that it doesn't work......People will get high.......If they want to.....Its a choice they make......Sure if I wasn't allowed sudefed anymore...and it stopped or slowed the meth epidemic...So be it...but it won't ....I grew up when Coke was the thing.........We would rock our own coke......Everyone was up in arms...War on drugs yada yada yada...All feel good programs and laws and such...it didn't stop the epidemic at all...........Ether was controlled so you couldn't rock it up..People just used baking soda.....Then what happened? You could bye Crack cocaine...Already to smoke.............It just doesn't work......I sure as h$ll wish it did........So many lives ruined.......The only thing that works is self control and education.....The government can't help us...Nobody can but ourselves........We control our own destiny.................Drugs are BIG business and as long as they is demand there WILL be supply.............All those dealers wanting to make a quick buck at the cost of many many lives....It is soooo sad.....The children are the innocent victims in it all and that sucks big time.......It makes my heart hurt thinking of the children of addicts....All addicts............ I pray for the addict that still suffers every night before I turn in.........
vctry7	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? Meth labs went down something like 80% in TN after restricting pseudoephedrine. Even if meth use didn't go down, which it didn't at all, I am still glad the labs went down. What is so hard about going to the pharmacy or running in Wal-Mart and showing your ID to get the cold medicine? If it keeps one kid from being poisoned by toxic fumes or being burnt alive, I don't mind doing that. I do think a mandatory sentence should be what it says. For example, if a person is supposed to get a 20 year sentence for manufacturing and then they get 5 years probation, what's the point in making the threat?
logolove	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? vctry7 wrote: I am still glad the labs went down. What is so hard about going to the pharmacy or running in WalMart and showing your ID to get the cold medicine? If it keeps one kid from being poisoned by toxic fumes or being burnt alive, I don't mind doing that. ^co-signed^ I totally agree with that what I did not agree with was 1) denying it as a medicine to those that will use it properly and 2) that use will necessarily go down and as your post shows and (oh no - I won't guess who said it but I think I know) someone else said - if it prevents labs then it is worth the effort to go sign my name and show ID...
1tamtom	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? i haven't heard of many meth labs busts anymore,ive seen on the news where bust with more dope has been more and more,instead of catching folks with grams it is now pounds and ounces,seems to me here in ca it has made the supply greater somehow,meaning the price is most likely going down as well.there have been alot of dump sites found but the cops haven't found labs in awhile.
JrsHubby1	Re: Harsher punishment for meth cooks? logolove - " The thing is that the more social controls you apply the lower rate of compliance you will have and the less good will." First, I just really cant recall too much " good will" while I was using meth ?? As far the "social control"? Well I think that you would have to weigh the control that society has on meth Vs, the control meth has on society ? If we start with just the ones that are in true, honest recovery from meth use and "addiction" and their families that it already has effected ? Well that number itself is prolly quite staggering? If that is not enough right there? Then you have to count the ones that are still using and in "addiction" and their families. Since we will probably agree, Have you ever known a "honest" meth addict? So really it is really impossible to know how astronomical that number would be !? VS. Pulling a half a dozen or so products from the shelves of local stores, or at least have complete control of the distribution of these products. Its not like the gov. and law enforcement do not know what they are? At this point I would say that meth definatly has the control on society? JMO I would think that in this case "social control" is acceptable ! Kind of like letting a 2 yr old play with matches in a fireworks stand ? Even if it was not my child, I'd have to say hey this is not ok, and be willing to do something about it ! FYI, One of the ingrediants in "Ice". Id be willing to bet , that probably 90% of the people in the World, do not or will ever need the use of this product! Then again probably more then 90% of it that is walking out the door of your local stores , is going for the production of "Ice" Star- In terms of the cost of meth to society, I think a major debate here would be utterly fruitless, (as there is no real "answer," just some good discussion,) but social controls, in and of themselves, are not designed for those of us who are "responsible" - they are there for those who are not. Who is "responsible"? For my meth use and "addiction" - Definately ME For my recovery - Again ME For "social control" - Gov. of the people , by the people , for the people ? jmo For the production and distribution of pseudoepedrine - Pfizer, The worlds largest producer of pseudoephedrine , Wal-Mart , The largest distributor! Sure I may have been "irresponsible" in my meth use and "addiction" ! But to say that "social controls " are not designed for those of us who are "responsible" ? Well sorry to disagree, but perhaps they should be?