KCI The Anti_Meth Site

Force meth treatment or serve jail term?

Debra	Force meth treatment or serve jail term? I have a brother and his wife, both meth addicts. Both currently incarcerated on a probation violation. Dirty UA's. They have lost their minor children to this addiction, they were forced to file bankruptcy over a year go. They've lost their careers, both highly paid professionals. Their home is in foreclosure. Yet, when asked, they both maintain they will quit, on their own. This despite their involvement for over a year now in varied programs, be they mandated by DCF, or the criminal courts most recently (due to criminal charges against them). Yet, they can do it themselves. Opinion on the following: My father is considering an attempt at tweaking things behind the scenes (he knows somebody that knows somebody that sort of thing), have it arranged (if possible) that my brother have two choices at his hearing in a couple of weeks. 1) spend the remainder of his sentence in jail (1 year) vs. the probation status he plea bargained for, or agree to mandatory residential treatment, and stay the course. Also, don't know whether it's of interest, but the brother and his wife, the home raided some mos. back (thus the criminal charges). Items found for use in manufacture of meth, as well as drugs and guns. They plea bargained ..... and became, I guess what you'd call it, squealers. Got probation, 1 year. I've tried to gently persuade my father, that request really should come from my brother. If he isn't a willing participant in residential rehab, ......... he'll likely walk right out the door and be in worse trouble. And I don't think my brother is there yet, as to his own mindset. Nor is his wife. Does it ever happen that the addict gets forced into treatment in this manner, and is thankful in the end? Or is the more likely outcome, that one isn't ready for such, and just walks?
Replies...
Tender heartsKS	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? *Quote:* Yet, when asked, they both maintain they will quit, on their own. This despite their involvement for over a year now in varied programs, be they mandated by DCF, or the criminal courts most recently (due to criminal charges against them). Yet, they can do it themselves. If nothing changes, nothing changes. Your father's attempt at 'tweaking' a few things to possibly present tx as an option doesn't seem feasible to me. Why would things be any different if your father does this? Look at the track record for your brother/sister-in-law. My parents tried for many MANY years to control things when I was using, and after I got clean, that transferred over to my oldest, who is still using at age 28. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Whenever the blow was 'softened' for me by my enablers when I had consequences for my actions, it was just an invitation to get right back out there and wreak more havoc. I had no initiative to quit because someone was always 'bailing me out' in one form or another. I have yet in the last 20 years to see someone get into recovery and STAY in recovery through some kind of court-ordered mandate. That is just my own personal experience.
Indiana shedevil	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? Good morning and welcome! This is what I have learned in my personal experience (was married to a meth addict). In Al Anon, we are taught that we do not prevent a crisis or to create a crisis. Basically, we need to let things go with the flow. We cannot enable them and prevent them from hitting rock bottom. Rock bottom is where the addict needs to be in order to be able to realize that there is a problem. People are responsible for their own actions and there are consequences for their actions. If you keep bailing the addict out of trouble, then in their minds there isn't a problem. I would like to suggest attending an Al Anon meeting. You'd be surprised. Best of luck with your family. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers.
still catest	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? I would say, for the most part, they have to WANT it to GET it and KEEP it. When I was in rehab a little over a year ago, there was one man in particular I met who was ordered by the state to get inpatient treatment. He was held in a psych ward involuntarily until he was fully detoxed (his main poison was alcohol). When he got to rehab, he still wasn't convinced that he needed to be there. Cut to the end, he had been there 90 days, and was GRATEFUL. I don't know what exactly changed for him, but even the counselors saw it. That guy is still clean today, has almost 18 months clean from everything and is doing very well. And...he's happy. I couldn't give you any kind of real statistics, just my own experience. My opinion is that this guy's "turn around" IS rare...but even if that person doesn't STAY clean, the seeds are planted, and they know where to go and what to do when the day comes that they are ready to change their life. Sorry to babble.
JUSTCATS	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? They say, that, if an addict does not want help, that it won't work ~ however, if they were in an in patient environment and in a totally different situation, just maybe it would click with them. Maybe, that is just my wishful thinking. But seriously, if you get somebody away from their addiction, just maybe they will realize how bad it really is and want help...
luve piphany	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? I'm so sorry you are having to go through the meth madness with your sister & BIL. I going to respond from a different more removed angle. If he is such a hardened case and sounds like he is a master manipulator-control freak (the trying to tweak the system) who hasn't wanted to try for a recovery/treatment program, then if he isn't put into a court mandated program, what will he do? The same things he did before which probably hurt many many people. He may be a snitch but snitches always screw up and end up back in prison-which we all need to remember, "taxpayers pay for prison". Even if the forced treatment/recovery program doesn't "stick" for someone, at least it gives them tools to use the rest of their lives, keeps them from using, cooking and dealing for a period of time, keeps them out of the family's immediate presence (can't cause so much misery) and society is probably a bit safer for a while. Most of all, it makes a person have time for God to heal even if they don't want to heal themselves. Prison is a tougher place for God to hang out in-though He is definitely there. The relapse rate is high for voluntary treatment graduates from meth programs already-the struggle is there for any meth addict in recovery so there is really no way to tell who will "WANT" it or who will "KEEP IT" to. I am going to keep believing in the biggest picture for me-Everyday our loved ones do not use is furthering their precious lives.
Penel0pe	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? My husband was court ordered into outpatient treatment and mandated to attend NA or AA meetings 3 times a week... We "Kind of" wanted to stop using - once it was forced on him and I followed along, we got enough clean time together to realize that we DID want recovery... and have stayed clean since!!
imlost inky	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? *Quote:* Both currently incarcerated on a probation violation. Dirty UA's. *Quote:* have it arranged (if possible) that my brother have two choices at his hearing in a couple of weeks. 1) spend the remainder of his sentence in jail (1 year) vs. the probation status he plea bargained for, or agree to mandatory residential tx, and stay the course. If possible is a big IF. they have had probation yet violated the court orders. It may be a go directly to jail , do not pass go situation. If it is possible, then I sincerely hope your brother accepts the year residential program. That really could make such a difference in life or death for him- even if he isn't gung-ho on it, a year is a long time to be clean and still maintain the tweaker mindset while having so much positive growth opportunity around him. If it is possible, then I would urge your father to do so- for the reason it really would give your brother a chance at life. Treatment is better than jail. Definitely more opportunity there anyway. If the worst does happen, if there isn't a choice and your brother does have to do his time, I hope the facility does have some type of program in place -for his sake. Good luck.
Debra	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? <If possible is a big IF. they have had probation yet violated the court orders. It may be a go directly to jail , do not pass go situation.> The prevailing theme seems to be this. Picked up on a probation violation, their first by the way. They have what's called a "first appearance" before the judge, w/in 24 hours of being arrested. In that appearance the judge denies them bond (that much has already happened). They then sit, incarcerated, until the arraignment, which can take two weeks, two mos, somewhere in between. Just whatever it takes. At the arraignment, they are (I guess) presented w/the charges against them and released. That much has already happened for the wife. Then, I guess, in the interim, required to report to the PO, report for UA's, and attend outpatient rehab (the conditions prior to the dirty UA's). So I don't know? How does this typically work? The arraignment, I understand, the charges against you are read. You are then given a day to come back to court, again. What is it? At that point, they will look at the situation and what.......send em back to jail, to serve out their year sentence, which heretofore had been probation? So they let em free, only to then send em back to Jail? To serve out the duration of the sentence?
a2ahome	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? Sounds to me the only thing Dad is tweaking is that he will have an option, or an opportunity to sit out his sentence or enter A rehabilitation program. My opinion is that sitting in jail is doing very little for him at this point. I think jail is effective only in the beginning when you get the initial scare factor. If you think he is sitting in jail being rehabilitated, think again, jail does not do that. Jail is an ineffective option for helping the addict. It is more of a temporary solution for society. He will come out not knowing anything about there being a solution and better way to live. I believe that he wants to live clean, but that is not done without getting the tools to do so. And I don't think that jail is effective in assisting rehabilitation. Been there done that it works very seldom.... Thanks for asking our opinions, I sincerely hope all turns out well.. I hope to read the follow-up to this...
imlost inky	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? *Quote:* How does this typically work? There is no typical. It totally depends on the judge and prosecutor- totally. With the seriousness of the charges- manufacturing as well as guns- I don't know that their having been "professional" people will get them out of this. It really depends on the judge- It could go either way. The way the judge and prosecutor are going to see it is this: They are highly intelligent individuals. They did have alternative choices they could have made. They did understand the seriousness of the crimes. They did know and understand they were getting a break. It isn't like they didn't know better- they did have that chance. And they blew it. With them being cooks, with the manufacturing, they pose a greater threat to society. They are a greater danger to the public at large than just an addict. How much money do they have? Because it will take a lot of pull and a lot of dough to get yet another chance if that judge is a hard nose like some I have known are. To the judge it is like thumbing your nose at him, dropping your pants- Judges do not like being blown off, they don't like it when their orders are not followed to the letter. If your brother had just been an addict, just using, I would say the chances would be pretty good. But as a cook, with guns, I just don't know. It really depends on how much pull your Dad has. How upstanding a family.
Debra	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? Thanks so much for all the responses. As to how much pull my dad has. I really don't know. I, personally, think that my dad is grasping at straws to ultimately try to save his son's life, in the end. But that's just MO. As to whether they could've actually proven them to be "cooking". I don't know. They certainly found the materials needed for manufacture, they found drugs, small amounts of meth, and other drugs, they found guns, they found video surveillance equip. (the whole house wired, ......... paranoia). But they didn't find an up and running lab. I agree. From my understanding of a plea agreement, one agrees to take a lesser penalty, in exchange for the terms of the agreement (in this case, outpatient rehab participation, PO office visits, and clean UA's). They were less than one month into their sentence. And back in jail they went. Dirty UA's. Yes, it's like thumbing your nose at the system, or that's how it's perceived. And in all honesty, in all this, at least from an objective (outsider) POV, they've done a lot of that. Thumbing the nose. They've had involvement w/DCF for a period of over a year and required participation in varying programs, as well as required clean UA's. The compliance with the above has been sporadic, if at all. I guess one could say, ...... thumbing their noses. Only in that case, it was w/DCF. I don't know where this will all end. My brother (nor does his wife) doesn't seem to value his children, his health, his livelihood, his home, his well being, his bio family, none of it. The only two things that seem to matter to him are his wife and his ability to continue to use drugs. It's scary.
vctry7	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? I think you father should let the pieces fall where they may. He can't really make your brother do anything anyway. Forced rehab won't help unless he wants it to. It depends on what state you live in, whether or not they can charge him for manufacturing meth. In my state you only have to have 2 items with intent to be charged with manufacturing - not an up and running lab. I know one guy that "ratted" on lots of people and got probation with time served (about 90 days) - twice - for cooking meth. I know another guy that would not rat on anyone and got 20 years. It just depends on lots of things.
chris gonz	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? I've seen some people get lesser sentences for talking. Sounds like a bad situation. Hopefully the courts will help and they'll realize what a mess they've gotten themselves into. I've seen people forced into rehab... never seen it work, not once. Prison has changed many people I know. Good luck with everything.
Imget inrite	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? By what you have written so far, It seems to me that they do not want to accept the punishment for their actions. I say this because of their talking, failure to stay clean, loosing their children, etc, etc.. Prison changed me. I had no choice but to accept the punishment for my actions, and It has made me not want to break the law again. I have not used illegal drugs in 2 and a half years. Yes, I believe addicts need help. But, I also believe that people need to take responsibility for their actions. Thus far, from what you have said, they have not done that. My opinion is that if your father has any pull at all, he should use it to be sure that they do jail time. Doing jail time will get them healthy, and thinking clearly. Once released from jail/prison, then, at that point, Get them into a rehab program so that they both can learn how to stay clean. Not only do they need help to beat their addiction, but they also need to realize that they have violated the law, and there are consequences for their actions.... Just my opinion.........
Debra	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? Thanks all of you who responded. It's such a troubling situation. So much more sick and sordid than I even went into. I'd have to write a novel. It's horrible to watch these two people who had it all. It's all going. I wish I could feel more compassion for them instead of anger and disgust. Wish I could find that in me somehow. I can't. I'm angry at them, both of them. For what they've done to their children, for what they've done to my parents, for what they've done to themselves. And continue to do. My brother won't speak to any of us, even as he sits incarcerated (nor will his wife). Of course, because, we try to reason w/him. He has a million lies and twists of the truth, he and she both. You don't know who to believe in all of their sordid stories. I don't know where it all ends. Thanks again for all the responses. I'll try to update when I hear anything.
Paws from hell	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? Debra; What I'm about to post in my opinion and I don't mean any disrespect. IMO= Trying to control or manipulate an addict into recovery is futile. Jails, Institutions, can " force" an addict into curbing his usage if not stopping in prison. But I personally know addicts "cons" who talk the talk but fail to walk the walk. I call it wearing a mask. As the year long residential programs can start the ball rolling towards recovery, if the addict is not willing then recovery is probable. Save yourself and your Dad some frustration, let the addicts save themselves. I post because I am a recovering meth addict. I send all good thoughts to you and your family.
imlost inky	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? *Quote:* He has a million lies and twists of the truth, he and she both. You don't know who to believe in all of their sordid stories. Neither. They have a very warped sense of reality right now, Debra. It is real to them- unfortunately in my experience with my sister, the truth will never be known. Hard to know what is real when you are speaking with someone who has been up for God knows how long - and so utterly messed from the dope. Neither Debra. And they will never know the real truth regarding these days. How to find compassion when there is only disgust? Debra, they just got caught- long before the law got them. Meth warps so much of reality. The biggest lie they ever told are the ones they have told themselves. It got them Debra. Had them from hello so to speak. It takes such a hold over you- you won't know, you can't understand unless you have walked it. It wasn't an intentional thing Debra- they thought hey this is cool - just party and go on with life. When they do make it free, when the head does clear, when they do get that glimpse of reality, it will hit like a ton of bricks, knocking the wind right out of you - when it hits just what your life has become - and that you allowed it- how could you ever let that happen? how could you ever as smart as you are, as wonderful as you were- as much as you had - ever ever let that go and be this non feeling warped individual you see in the mirror? Believe me when I say the disgust you feel for them- it won't hold a candle to the disgust your brother will feel for himself. It won't even come close. To find that compassion, remember than boy he was, remember the father he had been before- if there was a before- if not, then remember the man he was - he will never be that man again Debra. It is gone. He has experienced an existence you would not wish on your worst enemy. He has lived in hell Debra- hell the total void and absence of love , of real. He may not know it yet- but he will. He is your brother Debra. Even if you can't see that brother right now, he is still there. There is a mighty hard road ahead for you and your family. God grant you the strength to make it through.
Savedin illinois	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? My husband was arrested and released to an inpatient facility. The condition was that if he left treatment, they took him back to jail. He was in rehab for 30 days, then on "conditional release" (house arrest) until his sentencing was finished. That was January 2, 2002. Neither one of us has used drugs since then. Treatment was forced on him and it worked for BOTH of us.
luve piphany	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? T, that was the most clear and understandable description, explanation of a meth addict rolled into a ball I have seen yet. You are such a kind messenger luv ya
Debra	Re: Force meth treatment or serve jail term? Thanks lost, ...... and everybody else. What a compassionate bunch you guys are. I do let myself meander back to the days when my brother used to talk of football, fishing, surfing, backyard barbeques, family, get-togethers, his kids and their accomplishments/struggles, etc. That person doesn't exist right now. IF I talk to him, which is rare, his life has become a twisted mess of lies and sordid details that I don't even understand. Not about his kids (who he no longer has custody of), not about the big fish he caught over the weekend or the wave he caught surfing, or how my life is going, how my family is doing. None of that. I wonder if that guy will ever return. And it's so sad to reflect back to our years growing up. He was very much the brainiac, me ....... the village idiot. He didn't even have to work for his good grades in school. Me, struggling to keep my head above water. So much potential. Will he ever return?