To what extent will a Meth addict Lie?

I know they generally lie but will they lie about anything and everything? I will not let her be around the kids and she says she has stopped using but I saw her today and she looked worse than before. For the childrens sake I am pleading with her to get help but she has moved dates from the 1st to 14th to 28th of June. ( Says she's not using). There is no chance for us because she has been cheating with at least 2 of her drug friends which is fine I can handle that, and she knows I wont be married to her because of that, but how do I get her to get help for the kids sake?

The funny thing is out of all this she still tries and balmes me for her habit, but I wasnt the one out running around with the drug friends and pushers till the wee hours of the morning, she says I should forgive her but how do you forgive destroying lives because you want to get high, and screw around with others. All of her non user friends tell her she has made the biggest mistake of her life by doing to me what she has, I took her and her 3 boys in and never wanted to be more than a husband, father, and friend...people looked to us as having the perfect marriage no financial problems, no argueing at all, vacation homes, cars, boats, etc and a wonderful home, and now with her habit and money usage ( 6k in 4weeks ) she has almost destroyed everything I worked so hard to build to enjoy later in life with her and she knew this was how I wanted it to be and she shared the same dream or at least said she did.
I know I'm rambling but there is alot of confusion and anger within me at this time because I may never know why??????

I have never used meth, but my husband did. The same thing happened to me....only no children. Yes they lie....always. My now ex-husband used to blame me for his problem everyday, call me names....they spin it however they selfishly need to. Over time he only thought of himself but oddly enough always told me he was "doing all this for you". Example, He torn out the walls of the bathroom to fix a leak, when I inquired when it would be fixed, he accused me of "not trusting him to fix it" that he was "doing all these things for me". After I told him to either go to rehab or get out and he choose to leave, I paid $1,000 to have the bathroom replumbed, I put up the walls again myself and learned how to tile, and I had to re-do the floor. 6 months later I had a new bathroom I had fixed myself. Why did he destroy the bathroom in the first place? To fix a leak he says. Reality....his mind wasn't right anymore. Why did he start using meth in the first place? He says to work longer. Reality....I don't know. It has been 2 years since he left and I still ask myself that question ShadowIrish....Why why why? Where did my sweet husband go? Did he die inside his own mind? How and when did this start? Is he still out there somewhere...?...using...abusing...dying slowly? Why did he do this? I carry on with my life, out of the insanity things started to make sense....I am finally happy. But I think about this everyday. .....Why???...

Guess I should explain that the 3 boys were her's from a previous marriage and we now have a 4 year old girl and 2 year old boy, the older ones are with there real father now an the younger ones are with me the little girl still wants to see mommy but the boy is afraid of her because she hasnt been a mother to him for the last year to year and a half.

Why? My favorite question, and the one with fewest answers.

Why do they use? I suppose they could tell you the surface stuff...what they and everyone else can see...but the stuff no one sees and they don't want to look at stays hidden deep inside.

Why do they lie? To protect themselves and the use. They lie trying to keep what they have and what they know they should not...saddest of all, they often know long before the event that what they want to keep the most is what the use destroys the fastest. Yes, I think they lie to try to hold onto all they can...just as those who love them hold onto denial until they simply can't any more...holding on to maybe not what is, but to the dream of what could have been.

They lie to hide from themselves and from the fear. They lie to justify the lie itself. They lie to justify the use.

Irish, she has to stop using for herself, not for you, not for the kids and not for some concept of what life could be, but for herself. Just as she began the use, for herself...whatever reasons turned out to be the lies she ended up telling herself to begin with.

Until she learns to love and live inside herself, to not lie to herself she is not ready to be a mother, even a distant one to those children. Just as at the time she wasn't ready to be a wife to you, and perhaps, just perhaps you weren't really ready to be the husband she needed yourself.

One thing I have noticed over my years here on this forum. Is that often it is said "why we had it all" Or he had, she had... Sometimes what one percieves as it all isn't even close to what was needed. Things come and go, but the human kindness and touch we all need has to be repeated again and again...I think we all at times let the need or desire for things get in the way of that.

An example of that might be you percieve she needs a different car...so you work longer hours and spend less time with her...not counting hours but the special moments...when what she really needed was for you to be close, in all ways. Being there sometimes isn't being there. Not when your mind and soul are flying away in other directions.

I don't know about women who use drugs never having done so myself, but I do know a little about women and the needs we have that we can't really express. To us a smile, a look, a touch, quiet moments alone together are more valued than all the cars and houses in the world...that one moment when you are her world and she is yours...that moment a woman needs so badly...and so much more often than she recieves...a moment I truly believe men want and need also.

I realize with all the STDs that are around the sharing of a body is a concern, but the sharing of a heart, soul and mind are what make a marriage and a life. Forgiveness is a step the addict and those who have loved them must both take. Forgiveness of one's self and each other, even if you don't know exactly what you are forgiving. Forgive the person not the sin.

That is more of what I dont understand I was always there only away for 3 to 4 days up to 8 hours a day the other time was spent with her to enjoy what we had we were always going either by ourselves or as a family to various places could it be that there was to much there,I dont know? I always feel I showed my love and desire for her to be with me heart mind body and soul. My whole purpose in life was to try and make her happy she was free to go out as she pleased with no restrictions or demands and this is what got her into the situation should I have been more demanding with her on who what why when and where? I feel sometimes as if I would have maybe it wouldnt be this way now. I know she has no respect for herself she has told me and she wants me to keep fighting for her but how can I do this with the infidelity, and lying that is going on. She says she is lost and needs to find herself and I understand that, but the actions she has taken bear no forgiveness in my mind am I wrong to feel this way? I come from a very well brought up Christian lifestyle and Thou shalt not commit adultry is a very strong word from God himself. I try to forgive her and in ways I do, but for marriage it is hard to turn the other cheek. No one in my immediatee Family has ever been divorced I was brought up to respect Marriage and its vow, yes I know better or worse, but which caries more weight better or worse or adultry? I know this is not debateable because you should forgive and I do forgive but not enough to stay with her.
As for the touch, smile etc... I was always holding her hand touching her not sexually but a little touch on the hand a touch to her face or back to let her know I was always there. I guess I am just making myself more confused because to me and everyone else it was perfect maybe somewhere along the lines something failed that I didnt see or didnt want to see who know's?

WILL LIE TO SAVE HIS ASS AT ANY COST , MOM,DAD BRO, THEN DEPENDING HOW LONG,WIFE, SON DAUGHTERS ,EXES, BOSSES

Your situation is a difficult one and you will have to follow your heart guided by your head. My brother and his wife went through a very similar ordeal that lasted for almost a full year. She hooked up with a dealer and was using more and more. The lies she told to get out of the house grew more frequent until she ended up moving in with this guy, leaving my bro with my niece and a broken heart. He chose to hang in there and encourage her to come home and rebuild the family that she left behind. Long story short, she made the best choice for all of us and returned home, quit using and rebuilt a strong relationship. It must have been very hard for her to show her face at the first family gatherings knowing that everyone knew what had happened, although we all were very supportive of thier choices and love her dearly.
So any way if it works for you to do so, hang in there and keep reminding her of all the family and common friends that she will be missed by who love her for real, not cuz of drugs. She can be forgiven and re-enter the family plan leaving that all behind. The love and support you have always had for her should be worth more to her in the long run. make her see the long run...drug friends are here today gone tommorrow, they don't have her back, if she did to them what she's done to you they would tax her and send her packing. Good luck, my thoughts are with you whatever you choose to do. Don't forget yourself.

Had to respond to this post for two reasons; been there, hit home.
Meth sucks it steals the souls of those we love which changes us forever. Some may say meth is getting too much credit. I can only pull from my own experience. It sucks out your soul....stop or eventually die.
Best wishes for all those still involved in a relationship with a user.

Laura always speaks of 'her addict'. Another part of herself that most the time even she doesn't understand all that well. I get the impression that her addict is a selfish, greedy, demanding part of herself that she isn't really fond of but knows she must learn to either live with or bring back into herself as a whole.

When I speak of forgiveness, it isn't forgiving such as you seem to understand, but rather an acceptance that how you percieved your wife was an image she tried to live up to and failed. Not your failure but one she feels she has.

Meth seems to make all the failures, large and small disappear or to seem as though they have no impact on who the addict is...the person who still lives in the body stands by in pain not understanding what steps to take to make things be what they believe they are.

When the drug has 'taken over' and life becomes unbearable, the pain and fear of withdrawal add another factor into the attempts to remove themselves from the world where they have become if not comfortable, familiar.

Addiction, especially meth addiction seems to enger personality changes. Changes that are extreme. The simple fact that she can still ask you not to give up on her means she is not lost to the drug...that she has some fight left in her for her own life and dreams. It also means that she is aware that she can not win alone...and she only knows that you have been there for her when others may have not.

Addiction is called a disease. In some ways it is an insanity...one that is just as frightening for the addict as it is for those who love them.

Just as there are many kinds of love, there are many kinds of forgiveness...The part about being there, is something I tried to explain and made a poor job of it and for that I apologize. There aren't words for it, but the feeling is real. It is not something you would ever be aware of, but she would be...in her deepest self.

For a reason that maybe even she doesn't understand, she has not been comfortable in her own skin...seeking in places for a way to make it fit...sadly she found meth instead of help.

Her addiction is a battle she will have to fight for herself and by herself. She is asking you to be available as support. To hold what she holds most dear safe for this time when she is unable...to be prepared to throw out a lifeline when she asks for it.

I suggest you find Alanon or some group with which you are comfortable, to aid yourself in learning to live with the resulting impact upon you and the children...sometimes taking care of you is all you can do to help the addicted.

Educate yourself. Learn to take care of you. Learn to forgive yourself before you even try to forgive her, because sooner or later you will find and feel guilt of your own...Don't try to live the future, live the here and now. No one knows what tomorrow will bring.

The question about children, the one that is always asked and always breaks hearts that have been shattered before...
What to tell the kids? How do we help the kids to learn to live with this?

We have been seeking those answers for a long time...we are still seeking.

Be as honest with the children as you can, according to what they can understand.

That is the best I can tell you. I wish I had more.

Thank you Ma for your advice in this i need to find groups such as you speak you wisdom and advice in this helps me dearly and for that I THANK YOU!!!!

I just wanted to say that forgiveness is one thing, but to TRUST someone who has lied habitually would take a long time for me to get the TRUST back again!!! It wouldn't be my fault!!! Just my 2 cents worth!

Thinker

Yes forgive I believe I can find that within my heart but trust is a very big word and once lost very hard to regain....

My heart is always there for her but in mind a cant get over the fact of infidelity and I know this is something for me to deal with and forgive her for if I can find it in my own heart...my family isnt sure what to think of all this but they are there for me with whatever I decide I dont want o give up on her and family doesnt request that I do...it is just very tough for me to deal with at the moment when I do talk to her I always tell her that I love her and will be here when she needs me, and her reply is always why would you be there for me after what I have done? I dont have that answer I just know my heart and soul doesnt want to let her go because of what we did have before the Meth and it desires to have it back to that one day.

ShadowIrish,

I know exactly how you feel. I have been in the same boat for nine months now. Yes, your wife will lie about anything and everything, even if there is no point to it at all. She will consume all of your resources, including your feelings and emotions for her.

I too had what I thought was a very close and loving marriage and family. Then one night I awoke and she was gone. For the first three months I thought it was only infidelity, but then soon figured out it is meth, and she admitted to it.

I have decided to continue to fight for my wife of twenty years, despite her lying, cheating, stealing, criminal activities, etc. etc... I pray constantly, cry, hope, dream, wish etc.

I know you are struggling with the infidelity of it all, but the way I see it, the infidelity is a symptom of the horrible sickness she has. I too believe in God, and that He will lead us through this one way or another.

Keep reading this board. These people have been on both sides of the fence, and are incredibly insightful. I rarely post, but I read this board daily.

If you want to talk more with me, you can email me at: gene9165@yahoo.com. We have many similarities as men whose wives fell victim to this evil drug.

You are on my prayer list.

Gene

The strangest thing happened to me last night. I was talking with my ex boyfriend and I was asking him what I did wrong to make him relapse and he got angry. He said when I say that it is so negative, there is absolutely nothing I could do to make him use. I still feel responsible, and he is still going to use, but maybe it is headway?

K8...you said and I quote "She probably has about as much control over her behaviour and compromising of moral values as a person in cancer treatment has over losing their hair." Addicts lose control. That I get. But I don't get why people support and accept the infedility the abuse the lies. I did that for years but finally I couldn't take it. I got out and life is SOOO much better because I did. I love my ex-husband very much, but to say that he didn't have control of his own behavior I won't accept. HE chose to do the drug.....He had control of whether to use or not. He chose the drug and not me. I won't accept second place to a drug. Life is too short. I have found a wonderful non-user man and I am so happy. My other life now seems like a dream. I can't believe I put up with his @#%$ as long as I did. No one in my family has ever been divorced (except for me now) and I thought they would disown me because of it. Instead they supported me and understood. I deserve better treatment than a methhead can give. This website has been a fabulous place for me to go and get information, and I hope that I don't offend anyone. But some behavior is just unacceptable in my book, life is short, and as much as I loved my husband, he didn't even think he had a problem, even if I had stuck with him (and I did for numerous years), things never would have changed no matter how much I "helped" or loved him. Just re ShadowIrish that you have rights too. Don't let her stomp your soul.

I do agree with the point about the Cancer most people that get cancer with the exception of some do not go looking for it where with the meth they made the choice to do that, cancer patients dont make the choice to get cancer in most cases. I do forgive my wife in ways and do love her and have told her everyday even after I found out about the infidelity, but being intimate with her would be hard and confusing to me and at times I think of how could I actually hold her and not think about whom she had been with and all the STD's and things that are out there. That could potentially endanger my life if she had received something from another person.

the answer to your question.
To WHATEVER EXTENT IT TAKES TO BELIEVE THERESELVES

Mandy wrote:

<<But I don't get why people support and accept the infedility the abuse the lies.>>

There can be a big difference between supporting and accepting.

Support can also mean 'enabling' when it comes in any form that prevents an addict from feeling the consequences of their own addictive choices.

Please don't think that I am suggesting that ShadowIrish becomes a doormat to his wife's abuse or supports her in ways that make it easy for her to use.

I see acceptance as different because it's what we all have to do eventually for our own sanity. What is, is. Failing to accept the reality of the situation can totally do your head in.

From the point of acceptance we can then make wiser choices about our own actions. Like you, Mandy, I closed the door and got on with my own life and healing.

My love may be unconditional, but my level of involvement in a relationship is definitely conditional. I made this very clear to Ratbag. There was no way I would do one thing to support his habit. My door would only open when he was ready to get clean. In my case, he came home and began to recover. In your case, you found a new relationship.

My post to ShadowIrish was more about how we, as people who love a person suffering from an addiction illness, can come to an acceptance and begin recovering from the pain this disease causes us as well.

IMO we don't begin to heal until we can understand the illness, accept our powerlessness to make the other change and forgive them for the harm they have done to us while controlled by their illness.

We don't do this for them, we do it for ourselves, our own sanity and our own wellbeing. If we don't do this, the hurt we experience from our partners' betrayals and lies become sores that can fester inside US for years and years.

I know some codependents whose bitterness and anger still controls their lives years after they say they have moved on and left their using partner behind. Their whole identity becomes tied up in defining themselves as the victims of their former relationships.

As much as any using addict, we who love them also have to 'quit'. We have to give up expecting that we'll get our 'highs' from a relationship where the other party is now too sick to deliver any of the promises and dreams of future we shared with them when they were well. The future we imagined with this person is dead. And this is a painful grieving process. We need to honour our own pain in this and nurture ourselves.

My suggestions to ShadowIrish regarding forgiveness and keeping his heart open are not about some bargaining process where the reward will be his wife's return and life going back to the way it was in the past. The past is gone, the future is unknowable. All we have is today.

But we do have a choice about how we will live today and whether we will bring to it our 'presence' with an open heart. If we are caught up in digging at the scars of the past or trying to control and 'fix' the future, we are not 'present' for all that today might offer us. That makes us 'addicts' too.

When we accept and forgive what's happened in the past, we free OURSELVES to participate in today, this moment, as a fresh new now with infinite possibilities.

And life can be very good indeed if we are actually present in the here and now to enjoy it.

Blessings to you all,

K8

Thanks for responding k8. One thing....you said...that "In my case, he came home and began to recover. In your case, you found a new relationship."...but I didn't pursue a new relationship for quite some time after we separated. I had hope for a long time that things would change, that he would change. My husband hid his use for years from me. I couldn't figure out what was happening until I felt it was too late. Then I gave him a choice to stay and rehab/recover/quit and I would be there for him or get out. He left. I never saw him again. He left me holding the bag on everything. I was so clueless about drugs. This has been a world I knew nothing about. What an education. I don't feel I'm a victim of his abuse. I have pulled myself together, and become a better person becuase of it. It has taught me that I have strength I didn't know I had. One thing about this discussion....it gives me lots to think about.

ShadowIrish~
You've gotten a lot of responses here on how to deal with your wife's addiction. I won't knock any of them, since everyone deals with things in their own way. I've been addicted to meth and have done some horrible things to the people who love me the most, including my husband.
The following, is my advice to you. First, and foremost, continue to communicate with others who have been through what your going through. Ma and K8 offer great advice. They have an incredible understanding of what meth does to a person, and, in my opinion (as someone who's used), they offer effective approaches. I think I also like what they have to say because there is no anger when they speak of their experiences to you. Not to say that anger was never there in the past, or that some does or does not still linger (I don't know either Ma or K8 personally) but what they say comes from a sound mind. OK, don't want to ramble, so quickly, this is what I want you to know from my experience. It was, in no way, a result of something my husband did. The things that I did to him were wrong, I even knew they were wrong when I did them, but I blocked out those thoughts of "good" and "bad" by obsessing over something simple. Meth is powerful. As far as forgiveness, don't beat yourself up if you can't forgive her as she continues to use, if she stops and you can't eventually forgive her, than maybe you never will. That's ok too, we all have a limit. Ok, enough from me, cause I could go on and on forever. Ma and K8...that's were you're gonna get worthwhile advice and encouragement.

Thanks for all the information everyone, and I am slowly finding out that Ma, K8, etc...seem's to have the most input on all of this. Forgiveness of the mind is not as hard as forgiveness of the soul and heart, in my mind I have forgiven her and I am building on that but my heart and soul have so much conflict there at this time. I know it takes time and until she decides she needs help then there's not a whole lot I can do ( she has changed rehab dates 3 different times) I have told her I will go with her but she still refuses to follow through with everything.

Hey ShadowIrish,
I'm glad you keep coming back for the support that is available to you here.

You wrote:
<<Forgiveness of the mind is not as hard as forgiveness of the soul and heart, in my mind I have forgiven her and I am building on that but my heart and sould have so much conflict there at this time. >>

It's hard to even think about forgiveness when the pain is fresh and raw, yeah? Well if that's what you're experiencing today, you can just allow that to be. Being a man that's probably going to be one of the toughest parts of the journey.

Gene has told you, you have to be strong and now I'm going to tell you that, in order to recover, you have to be strong enough to honour and allow the pain as well.

<<I know it takes time and until she decides she needs help then there's not a whole lot I can do ( she has changed rehab dates 3 different times) I have told her I will go with her but she still refuses to follow through with everything. >>

Don't hold you breath waiting, ShadowIrish. Get on with your own recovery and let her come around in her own time...if that is going to happen. To do otherwise is to set yourself up for a deeper gouge of disappointment over another set of expectations she may be in no position to make.

With regard to the skin-crawlies of a reunion with a partner who's been unfaithful. I do understand. That's not something you want to rush into if you feel this way. And if you do go there, condoms and a three-month blood test for STDs are a sensible precaution.

If your wife returns to you, give yourself plenty of time to rebuild something real and new with her. You know you can never have your old relationship back. That's dead and gone, I'm sorry to say. But it is possible to have something even better if you're BOTH prepared to do the work of self discovery that's involved in recovery.

Please don't wait for your wife to start this process or you're likely to be waiting for a very long time.

Do it now, for you and for the kids. If she comes along and joins you, so be it. If she takes another path, you will have given yourself the chance to gain so much more.

Be there for you and the kids now, pal.

There's no way you're alone on this journey.

Love
K8.

Fortunately I have started the process for myself and my children today. I have spoken with some local groups and they are willing to help and talk or just listen to what I have to say. That and this board are my starts to all this. I gratefully have very close friends here and some of them are confused about how all this started also and they are even going with me tonight at 7:00 CST ( Close friends who we played cards with, swimming, boating, etc...). Trying to get through the shock of it all seems to be the most difficult part of it in ways I still fell numb to it all. I havent really been relying on her starting her recovery it just seems as if I should let her know I am here to help if needed, and continue to let her know this at least makes me feel as if I am trying because I refuse to give up even though it is very hard to do at times. The children have been great through all this the younger ones dont understand a whole lot, the 4 yr old (GIRL) just misses mommy and the 2 yr old (BOY)is almost scared of her and that is what is more heart breaking than most things going on. I could go on and on about thought and feelings just because they are so new, and I have actually stated a self journal on the computer to see everyday how I felt about any given situatin that comes up to try and better understand myself through this process.

Well first off addicts are people just like everybody else, so i geuss that means to whatever extent they deem neccisary. and those of us out there that say we want to but dont, some of us hate ourselves for it becuase we can see the pain we our causeing our loved ones as well as ourselves and the really @#%$ up thing is that some of us are so weak that we don't know how to stop.

i started doing meth when i was 13 and when i say i did it i mean i did it every day all day for about 5 years

If their mouth is moving they are lying.

An alcoholic will steal your money, but an addict will steal your money and help you look for it.

It's different if they're clean, but active...everything is a lie.